p. 49 -- third paragraph "As a cloud crosses the sun, silence falls on London; and falls on the mind. Effort ceases. Time flaps on the mast. There we stop; there we stand. [...] Where there is nothing, Peter Walsh said to himself; feeling hollowed out, utterly empty within. Clarissa refused me, he thought. He stood there thinking, Clarissa refused me."
These lines come after three paragraphs in which Peter attempts to convince himself of his own good fortune and of his love (for Daisy). He claims that he is "really for the first time in his life, in love" and calls Clarissa "hard," "cold," and conventional. But when a cloud crosses the sky, when time stops, he realizes the truth: he is empty because Clarissa refused him. (He's still not over her.)
What is the significance of the woman that Peter follows? He notices her right after he says that he has escaped, but from what? (from Clarissa's control?). Also, at the end of his adventure, he says "It was over. Well, I've had my fun..." (p 54), which is similar to what Clarissa says after she imagines running away with Peter -- p. 47 "It was now over." Why?
First to respond to Ellery: This section clearly does show that Peter loves Clarissa and hasn't yet come to terms with it, I agree. Especially with the line, "yet Heaven knows he loved her" (60). The scene with Peter following the woman confused me, also; it makes him appear very shallow and also a little creepy. He follows her because "she became the very woman he had always had in mind; young, but stately; merry, but discreet; black, but enchanting. To me, these seemed like very superficial characterstics that he desires in a woman. I think that the scene served to show us several aspects of Peter: he is uncomfortable with his age (his fantasy with a younger woman made him feel young and free), he places a lot of importance on appearance, and he is almost pathetic in that he must invent a story in which he is an adventurer because he does not feels weak in real life.
I chose a quotation that pertains to Peter's opinion of Clarissa: though he claims to love her, he seems to see her as transparent and fake. Clarissa flings herself onto her dog in order to appeal to Peter--it gave me an "aw, that's sad" moment. "It was as if she said to Peter--it was all aimed at him, he knew--'I know you thought me absurd about that woman just now; but see how extraordinarily sympathetic I am; see how I love me Rob!'...she would do something quite obivious to defend herself, like this fuss with the dog--but it never took him in, he always saw through Clarissa" (60). My question is, are we supposed to see Clarissa as this flimsy, weak woman? Do we trust Peter's opinion? Does he even believe that she is this pathetic, or is he just trying to make himself feel better?
pg. 50: "...and the sudden loudness of the final stroke tolled for death that surprised in the midst of life, Clarissa falling where she stood, in her drawing room. No! No! he cried. She is not dead! I am not old, he cried, and marched up Whitehall, as if there rolled down to him, vigorous, unending, his future."
This passage reminded me of the first two pages we read as a class, with the common theme being time the passing of time. I also saw parallels between the chime of Big Ben and the sound of the clock at St.Margaret's. Peter seems like he is in denial of the passage of time and his own aging. In contrast, earlier in the novel, Mrs. Dalloway expresses some regret about how she has lived her life, and describes how she would have changed things if she could have lived her life over again (pg. 10). Mrs Dalloway looks into the past and the things she would change, while Peter continues to look into the future he imagines for himself, even as time passes.
My question is kind of specific and may not be important, but I was wondering why Peter brings up Mrs.Dalloway's daughter Elizabeth (pg. 56). What is her role in the novel? Is she just used to point out certain traits in Mrs.Dalloway, or does she serve some other purpose as her own character?
In response to Ellery's passage: who is the "we" stopping and standing? Is "we" all of humanity? (That was something I was wondering while reading)
Pg. 54: "And it was smashed to atoms - his fun, for it was half made up, as he knew very well; invented, this escapade with the girl; made up, as one makes up the better part of life, he thought - making oneself up; making her up; creating an exquisite amusement, and something more."
This passage fits with our discussion earlier today. Once again, Peter has fictionalized a female counterpart; yet this time, he has no one to impress except for himself and his thirst for excitement. This make-believe is also interesting for comparing Peter to Clarissa; while Peter fabricates a random woman's intentions, Clarissa prizes herself on being able to read people. Though Peter has just returned from India, he is still longing for adventure, excitement, and passion, even if he has to make it up himself.
I was also drawn to the phrase "one makes up the better part of life." Based on everything we - the readers - know and have seen from Peter, does he actually believe this statement, or is he just trying to make excuses for himself here?
Though Peter admits that this moment is indeed fiction, he says that he has "smashed [the moment] to atoms," which are the real, logical building blocks of life. Does this word choice imply that Peter saw more truth than he admits to himself in this moment, or is he simply mourning the logic of reality? Is he trying to build - or rebuild - his own world of sorts?
@Katie: Since Elizabeth is the daughter of Richard (Clarissa's husband) and Clarissa, Elizabeth is a result of their marriage and supposedly the product of their love. Peter longs for a romantic relationship with Clarissa, and Elizabeth is a reminder of the relationship he has lost.
@Mel--I think Peter is trying to avoid confronting the real world, which is why he indulges in this made up moment. I thought that by trying to avoid facing time, his old age, and remembering his childhood were all his ways of escaping from his problems.
This kind of ties in with my passage: "there were moments when civilisation...seemed dear to him as a personal possession...men of business and capable women all going about their business, punctual, alert, robust, seemed to him wholly admirable" (55).
Later on, "He admired her courage; her social instinct; he admired her power of carrying things through" (62).
It seems very hypocritical of Peter to disapprove of Clarissa being the perfect hostess while he admires her for those qualities as well. I thought that it might be Peter's inability to confront the rigid way of civilization/time that makes him such a failure(?)
What are we supposed to make of Peter's description of Clarissa's coldness? And the "death of her soul" (59)?
Hello, everyone! My quotation is on (my) page 51; in your books it may be anywhere from 50-52:
"He had escape! was utterly free--as happens in the downfall of habit when the mind, like an unguarded flame, bows and bends and seems about to blow from its holding. I haven't felt so young for years! thought Peter, escaping (only of course for an hour or so) from being precisely what he was, and feeling like a child who runs out of doors, and sees, as he runs, his old nurse waving at the wrong window. But she's extraordinarily attractive...as she passed Gordon's statue, seemed, Peter Walsh thought (susceptible as he was) to shed veil after veil, until she became the very woman he had always had in mind..."
I know that mostly everyone has already made some mention of this woman, but I wanted to offer up an alternative (perhaps not mutually exclusive with the others) interpretation of her. On some level, I do think this is very much about Peter's discomfort with his age, and the novel does place an emphasis on this as a depiction of his near-pathetic fantasy life, but I also can't help noticing the parallels between Mrs. Dalloway and Peter that this passage emphasizes. First off, we learn that "freedom" is a very important part of Peter's vision of living life his own way, of escaping "being precisely what he was." This is also something we've already learned causes Mrs. Dalloway a certain amount of distress--does she not want to be someone other than "Mrs. Richard Dalloway," and doesn't she have a fantasy life too, in which she has a life with Peter? In addition, the image of the woman shedding "veil after veil" to become the perfect woman evokes images of Mrs. Dalloway the Nun. If Mrs. Dalloway were to shed her veils, so to speak, she would become her real self, an independent woman without Richard hanging over her? If this is the Clarissa Peter really wants to know--the one who gets what she wishes for--don't we have sympathy for his fantasies?
And my question is...WHO is the solitary traveller? I know Mr. Golding mentioned him in class, but I'm very curious: is he simply (well, not "simply") another "fantasy" version of Peter, or is he someone else? Are all of the women he meets supposed to be versions of Mrs. Dalloway (the elderly woman is ill)? Or are they others--for instance, a "mother whose sons have been killed in the battles of the world" seems to be Lady Bexborough, Mrs. Dalloway's (not Peter's) ideal woman?
I think I'm going to come back and respond to a post later; right now, everyone's ideas are just so nice to read as they are, and I think I might need a little time o think before I even know what to write!
P.S. I'm really sorry for this long post. And this P.S. just made it longer. Sorry. Again.
pp. 51 (top): "Boys in uniform, carrying guns, marched with their eyes ahead of them, marched, their arms stiff, and on their faces an expression like the letters of a legend written round the base of a statue praising duty, gratitude, fidelity, love of England." + pp. 55 (middle of first paragraph): "...there were moments when civilisation, even of this sort, seemed dear to him as a personal possession, moments of pride in England; in butlers; chow dogs; girls in their security."
These quotations struck me because they continue on a theme of English patriotism and nationalism that have been subtly appearing throughout the novel; in almost every paragraph there is some small reminder that the action is set in England, whether in Westminster, Bourton, up Whitehall, etc. There seems to be a strong connection between the main characters and English pride, which was fleshed out to its fullest in the passages about the mysterious car; there, a meaningless object was transformed into a national icon. People want desperately to believe that meaning exists in the passing car, attaching to it symbols of tradition and beloved national icons (the figureheads of England)--which in themselves are symbols, abstract concepts to which people attach deeper meaning.
Question: is this undercurrent of English nationalism then just an indicator of how people scrabble for some kind of meaning in their lives? What are we meant to make of India, and Peter Walsh's background in it?
(If I may, Tori, I'm going to copy you and come back to respond later when I've mulled things over a bit)
Bottom of p. 47 (in my edition)—“he, Peter Walsh; who was now really for the first time in his life, in love. Clarissa had grown hard, he thought; and a trifle sentimental into the bargain, he suspected, looking at the great motor-cars capable of doing—how many miles on how many gallons? For he had a turn for mechanics; had invented a plough in his district, had ordered wheel-barrows from England, but the coolies wouldn’t use them, all of which Clarissa knew nothing whatever about.”
I chose this passage because it shows just now hard Peter is trying to distance himself from Clarissa, and how badly he’s failing. He tries very hard to convince himself that he’s now in love with another, but his insistence of “now really for the first time” is a little too much to make it believable. All his assertions about Clarissa, as well, are described as products of his own mind: “he thought” and “he suspected”. He tries to distance himself from Clarissa by asserting that she knows nothing about mechanics while he knows very much, but the fact that he even started talking about her again just goes to show that she is not far from his thoughts. My question is whether Clarissa is aware of his mixed feelings for her, or whether she believes the lie that he has presented to her?
To respond to Katie’s question: I think that Elizabeth, as far as we’ve seen her and as far as Peter thinks of her, is simply as a product of Mr. and Mrs. Dalloway’s marriage. She is proof that they are married, were possibly once close, and that Clarissa, despite all her feelings to the contrary, is not a virgin. The fact that Elizabeth is so different from Mrs. Dalloway shows how separated Mrs. Dalloway is from Westminster—from her daughter’s world. Peter sees how Mrs. Dalloway tries to claim Elizabeth as her own (“here’s my Elizabeth”) when really she has no claim to her.
My quotation is on my page 88. Sorry, I have no idea what page it is on in the Harcourt edition, but it's around the middle of the reading, and the paragraph starts with "It was at Bourton that summer...": Clarissa, Peter, Sally, and other guests are sitting around a table and talking about a housemaid who had a baby before she was married. "He had married his housemaid, and she had been brought to Bourton to call-- and awful visit it had been. She was absurdly over-dressed, "like a cockatoo," Clarissa had said, imitating her, and she never stopped talking. On and on she went, on and on. Clarissa imitated her. Then somebody said-- Sally Seton it was-- did it make any real difference to one's feelings to know that before they'd married she had a baby?...He could see Clarissa now, turning bright pink...and saying, "Oh! I shall never be able to speak to her again!"
Peter then comments on this, saying that Clarissa is "timid; hard; something arrogant...The death of the soul."
It seems that Clarissa, like we talked about in class, really cares about how she presents herself in front of others. She degrades the housemaid, imitating her, and talking "on and on" about her. At the end, she goes too far and ultimately embarrasses herself in front of the guests.
In this case, I sympathize with Peter. Clarissa cares too much about herself and not enough about other people that a part of her, that Peter once knew, was gone. I wouldn't go as far as to say that her soul dies, as Peter does, but Clarissa definitely loses a part of herself.
Question: This may be trivial, but why does Peter keep mentioning that he is annoyed with Clarissa when she says "Here is my Elizabeth!" instead of "Here's Elizabeth"? He mentions it twice.
I'm going to respond to a few questions, if no one minds.
First, off, Helen: I thought Peter's references to her coldness and the "death of her soul" really add to the descriptions of coldness we saw from her own perspective, showing readers that this is in fact a quality Mrs. Dalloway has, and it's a negative one at that--even Mrs. Dalloway admits it. As for what we are supposed to make of her coldness...Well, I'm not entirely sure. Although I have absolutely no idea what is going to happen in the end, I do have a gut feeling that Peter is going to, or at least should, be the one to revive her. The "death of her soul" came at Bourton, in the country: where she had her relationship with Sally, where she commenced courtship with Richard...but where a relationship with Peter was never realized. Perhaps the city, though unnatural and almost mechanic in its descriptions, will bring her back her soul (as it brought her a love of life) and Peter.
Alice: Although I had begun to note in the back of my mind how often these "English" references occur, I hadn't even thought about them in terms of English nationalism. Thanks for pointing this out! I don't know if I could answer the overarching meaning of this nationalism for people in general, but I did want to try to talk about English nationalism in comparison to Peter's trip to India. I think each place serves a distinct purpose here; just as the contrast between Bourton (country) and Westminster (city) is important (in particular, I think, for demonstrating differences between youthful Clarissa and aging Mrs. Dalloway), the distinction between England and India must be important for describing Clarissa and Peter. I feel as though Peter left for India in order to find himself and perhaps even escape Mrs. Dalloway; he tried to do what stereotypical do-gooders do: better the world and "civilize" the "uncivilized" (I say this because he mentioned the racial slur "coolie" in reference to the Indians--although, was it a racial slur at the time? I'm not sure). Unfortunately for him, however, he cannot delude himself into believing he is happy, despite his new marriage. I think we are supposed to see this reality in Woolf's choice of India for his journey, as a good chunk of its history (especially recent history) has involved a constant British influence. Because Great Britain seems to represent Mrs. Dalloway on some level, this also suggests that the real Mrs. Dalloway has been a constant influence in Peter's life, even while he was in India. Now that he is back, we are seeing nationalist references from Peter, as well. Does this maybe suggest that they want to be "one England" now?
This of course hardly touches on either of your questions (boy, there really is a lot to discuss with Mrs. Dalloway, isn't there?), but I would love to continue discussing these and other questions!
By the way, wow. I just noticed all of my typos in my previous post, and there are probably a ton in here, too.
@joy: The second time Peter mentions it, he also says "Probably she doesn't get on with Clarissa" (55). Elizabeth being the offspring of Clarissa and Richard, it's almost as if he hopes Elizabeth and Clarissa don't get along. And so, he enjoys seeing Clarissa struggle to pretend she has a good relationship with her daughter, hence the repetition.
pg 52: "There was a dignity about her. She was not worldly, like Clarissa; not rich, like Clarissa. Was she, he wondered as she moved, respectable?"
In this passage Peter is describing the woman that he follows. Although he keeps on telling himself that he is over Clarissa, he can't help but compare other women to her, let alone a random woman he doesn't actually know. No matter how many times he tries to convince himself he no longer loves Clarissa, it is pretty clear that he still does.
Question:Why is Peter so sure Richard is the one Clarissa is to marry the moment he sees him?
pg51: "Boys in uniform, carrying guns, marched with their eyes ahead of them, marched, their arms stiff, and on their faces an expression like the letters of a legend written round the base of a statue praising duty, gratitude, fidelity, love of England...Now they wore on them unmixed with sensual pleasure of daily preoccupations the solemnity of the wreath which they had fetched from Finsbury Pavement to the empty tomb...On they marched...in their steady way, as if one will worked the legs and arms uniformly, and life, with its varieties, its irreticences, had been laid under a pavement of monuments and wreaths and drugged into a stiff yet staring corpse by discipline."
I think this passage is interesting because of the way it shows the difference between what something stands for and what something actually is. The boys supposedly are meant to be some sort of legend, someone who is devoted to England out of emotion - "duty, gratitude, fidelity, love," yet Peter is quick to point out that this isn't the case. They have expressionless faces as they bring a wreath to the empty tomb (I'm assuming this is in relation to the custom of laying wreaths on the tombs of soldiers, and I would guess that it's empty because it is a monument/memorial to a soldier, however I could be reading that incorrectly), and it is simply treated as having taken a vow, which I see as saying that they simply need to serve their country, no more. After this, Peter notes their walk, and how ridiculously coordinated it is to the extent that life was "drugged into...a corpse." That life is paved over by wreaths and monuments again plays into the lack of emotion the soldiers have over their duties. In the end, the people who are supposed to be central to England's nationalism are, in reality, just figureheads to the people.
Question: This may be too broad, but what purpose do the parenthetical comments serve? Especially when referring to a previous thought, like when Peter hears the clock striking and a mention is made to the leaden circles dissolving in parentheses. Are they like usual parentheses, serving merely as side notes, or do they have a larger purpose?
(this is long enough, so I'll respond in a separate post)
At Katie: I remember how we discussed in class how annoyed Mrs. Dalloway was over the fact that she had followed the path in life she had planned out and yet wasn't happy, while Peter had done something different and seemed (supposedly) to be fairly pleased. In looking at Elizabeth in reference to this, one could say that Elizabeth is proof of how Mrs. Dalloway's life plan never went the way she wanted; Elizabeth never became a 'shoe and glove' kind of girl, and instead loves an old history teacher more than her mother. When Peter is around, Mrs. Dalloway tries to reclaim her daughter ("My Elizabeth") almost in an effort to prove that her life has turned out for the better, because she needs to one-up Peter, when really, Elizabeth is hardly hers.
Somewhat a vague-ish connection to Tori's original post... kind of.
I was really interested in Peter's obsession with time/age/the past. In a span of a few pages, he discusses different aspects:
before the adventure: "He had not felt to young for years" (52).
during his brief infatuation with the woman on the street" "she's young, quite young" (53).
then, when he sits down at the park: "odd, he thought, how the thought of childhood keeps coming back to me--the result of seeing Clarissa, perhaps; for women live much more in the past than we do, he thought" (55).
YET, he then reminisces about Bourton: "'Lord, Lord!' he said to himself outloud ... 'The death of the soul.' The words attached themselves to some scene, to some room, to some past he had been dreaming of" (58).
I'm being lame cause these are pretty broad, but I think the first two add a nice intro. Anyway, I want to focus most specifically on the last two. I chose these passages because they show (like many of my brilliant classmates have demonstrated before me) Peter's conflicting thoughts. Though he says that "living in the past" is a womanly thing to do, he proves that he is doing that exact thing merely three pages later. He always reminisces about moments at Bourton... They cloud his thoughts and perhaps show by his own reasoning that he is "womanly.” He places the blame, of course, elsewhere: “the result of seeing Clarissa.”
What else can we say about Peter’s obsession with time? Time obviously has a major role in the entire novel—Big Ben, the time of day, etc. etc.
@Erika and Katie : I agree. Though this isn’t exactly the word I’m looking for, Peter and Clarissa’s relationship is somewhat “competitive.” Both try to prove that they are better off without the other. For Peter, he must prove that the rejection did not actually break him—yet we know, quite clearly, that it has. For Clarissa, she must prove that she has made the right decision after all these years. We readers know that neither is satisfied with how things turned out. I think it goes back to their relationship as young adults. Peter is extremely critical—like that time when they are discussing the pregnant neighbor. Clarissa, on the other hand, is overly prude. Both are too stubborn, even as their older selves, to admit wrong.
pp. 55 second paragraph: "-odd, he thought, how the thought of childhood keeps coming back to me-the result of seeing Clarissa, perhaps; for women live much more in the past than we do, he thought."
I found this passage interesting because both Clarissa and Peter find themselves thinking about the past. After Peter's meeting with Clarissa, we enter Peter's mind where he is clearly being drawn back to his childhood memories. Everything he sees in the city-- the park, Gordon's statue-- all remind him of when he was a boy. Clarissa also thinks of the past, as we saw in the previous reading. She was thinking about her girlhood when Peter came to visit. This shows that both of them are still not over the past (that they shared), and this also shows that both Peter and Clarissa are somewhat afraid of getting old.
One last thing-- Peter says that reminiscing is more of a woman thing to do, but I found this strange because Peter is the one who just cried at Clarissa's house while thinking of the past...
My Question: Why does Peter have a sudden revelation that "She will marry that man"(61) talking about Richard Dalloway? After seeing Richard and Clarissa talking for the first time, why does Peter immediately think they will get married? And after he so surely thinks this, why doesn't he do anything more about it to win Clarissa back instead of just crying??
So sorry Cora! totally didn't mean to copy your quotation! I swear I saw it after I posted mine!!
To (kind of) respond to Ellery... I think that Peter has escaped from the world itself. He mentions that no one besides Clarissa knows that he is back from India, and he really has no obligations. He is, basically, free in London, and I think he realizes that and wants to enjoy it. Maybe he almost wants to try a new identity or escape from the old thoughts that are bothering him, which might be why he follows around that woman. He seems to be trying to "have fun" when he follows that girl home--like he thinks something exciting is going to happen, but nothing does. This also ties in with the idea that Peter AND Clarissa are somewhat afraid of getting old. Both say they "have had [their] fun" and, at times, both get lost in their pasts.
(Just to clarify, this is Julia Sklar, not Fernandez...)
A few people have already mentioned this quotation, but I'm going to sort of take it in a different direction.
"'The death of the soul.' The words attached themselves to some scene, to some room, to some past he had been dreaming of. It became clearer; the scene, the room, the past he had been dreaming of" (58).
-in conjunction with-
"'THe death of the soul.' He said that instinctively, ticketing the moment as he used to do—the death of her soul" (59).
I chose these two quotations to pinpoint what is a rapidly developing theme: Peter's deflection of himself onto Clarissa. Between these two passages it becomes very clear that Peter is not over the past, as he he attaches this "death of the soul" to "the past he had been dreaming of," which we later find out is his past with Clarissa. Just as you're about to accept that the "death of the soul" Peter is talking about is referring to himself, he turns the tables and announces that it was in fact Clarissa whose soul died that day at Bourton. This "moment" of "the death of her soul" is pinned to the day that she and Dalloway met; the day that Peter postulated they would married, and subsequently broke it off with Clarissa. I believe that we can read this as having subtext, which is that the day he says Clarissa's soul died, is more probably the day HIS soul died... the day he lost Clarissa, who was his first love (49). This brings the meaning of these two quotations back to himself once again, even though he claims he is talking about Clarissa. This seems to be a very common attitude that Peter takes, blaming Clarissa, and making her out to be the wounded or imperfect one, when it seems that he is actually talking about himself.
My question is rather specific, but I was wondering if, in the passage "[Sally] had either been engaged to somebody or quarrelled with her family and old Parry disliked them both [Sally and Peter] equally, which was a great bond" (60), is it significant that Peter has just connected himself with Sally here, pairing the two people whom Clarissa has loved? Might this idea return later? And if so, what do you think it means, since the two kinds of love she feels (the one for Sally and the one for Peter) are so different?
My response is to Joy: I think Peter is picking up on Clarissa's language here, because it's extremely possessive. She's saying this is MY daughter, and you had no part of it, this isn't OUR daughter, and this isn't just any Elizabeth. This clearly bothers him because he wishes he'd been married to Clarissa, and Elizabeth is a reminder to him that he's not.
What made Septimus go crazy? He seems to be especially crazy when contemplating things outside of the current time (i.e. when he is having a vision of dogs becoming men, visions of Evans, etc...), however his thoughts of things that are happening in the moment and his present contemplations on some things that will or have already happened seem to be relatively quiet rational (i.e. his reaction to seeing Rezia's ring-less finger, and when he states that there must be "a scientific explanation). His thoughts that come across as crazy to the reader seem to be somehow inspired by something in a different time. As a character he sees much beauty in life, therefore superficially it seems contradictory that he is suicidal. Are his suicidal thoughts, then, a result of time (the collision of time, the overwhelming nature of time, the confusion that it imposes on him...?) Relating all of this back to Mrs. Dalloway, how are the affects of time on both of them similar/different?
I was also interested in the relationship between Peter and Sally, because they are two people from Clarissa's past and the two people she loved at Bourton. On page 63, it says, "Sally sweeping him off for talks in the garden;Clarissa in bed with headaches." This line occurs after Clarissa begins falling love with Dalloway, and I thought the juxtaposition of the two people Clarissa loved together, and Clarissa alone in bed, was really interesting. Also, Julia's question and the bond between Peter and Sally over Clarissa was really relevant in tonight's reading (pg. 75)
ok, so, disclaimer: this question is really incoherent. thinking abuot the fact that Clarissa was in love with a feminist... Is there any sort of distinct difference between the connotations of men v. women? It is kind of funny how Clarissa says she used to spend her time reading Plato, who had a completely male-centric view of the world, and viewed the love between a young and old man to be the best kind of love and any other kinds of love to be nourishing the base parts of the soul, while Clarissa seems to put substantial value into the love between two young women. What made her love with Sally was the sense of being "in it together" and the protectiveness of the relationship (in addition to the love of life shared by the two girls). Considering this, why does she then feel the need for complete independence when it comes time for her to make her choice of husband? Is this just because she knows she will never be happy with a man? Anyways....ridiculously broad question: what is the book's view (so far) of love? (What is it? Where does it exist? are there different kinds? can it be detrimental?...)
:/ Sorry for all of the questions, i will keep my quotation short. Like roses, dogs seem to be a motif They are first brought up when Clarissa says her daughter cares for them, then when Richard fixes up the dog's paw that got caught in a trap and RIchard is described as standing on his hind legs (or something along those lines), then in Septimus' vision of dogs becoming men, and finally when Septimus and his war buddy Evans. Perhaps the enduring dog-like or animalistic qualities result in, are brought out by, and are strengthened by the war?
quotation: p.75 paragraph 2 "...Richard Dalloway got on his hind legs and said that no decent man ought to read Shakespeare's sonnets because it was like listening at keyholes..." At first I thought this was comical but then i realized how sad it truly is. Clarissa has already generously quoted Shakespeare; some of the quotations bring her hope and some she can personally relate to. This quotation shows how essentially different from each other mr. and mrs. dalloway are. This also made me think of the affect of war; Septimus used to read Shakespeare and want to be a poet, he rejected this after returning hardened and jaded from the war. Shakespeare may also serve as a symbol of England (and art/beauty/joy in general), if this is true, the rejection of him, which may be attributed to WWI, is significant.
In response to the quotation Mel chose Pg. 54: "And it was smashed to atoms - his fun, for it was half made up, as he knew very well; invented, this escapade with the girl; made up, as one makes up the better part of life, he thought - making oneself up; making her up; creating an exquisite amusement, and something more."
I found it interesting that he concedes that one makes up most of life (implying that people aren't perfectly true to themselves, that everyone is, to some degree, superficial) when he criticizes for Clarissa for being superficial. Is this a connection we are supposed to see? Is superficiality universal to everyone, or just to Peter and Clarissa?
"Then, as the sound of St. Margaret's languished, he thought, She has been ill, and the sound expressed langour and suffering. It was her heart, he remembered; and the sudden loudness of the final stroke tolled for death that surprised in the midst of life, Clarissa falling where she stood, in her drawing room. No! No! he cried. She is not dead! I am not old, he cried, and marched up Whitehall, as if there rolled down to him, vigorous, unending, his future." pg 50
The first thing that struck me about this passage is that Peter's biggest concern regarding Clarissa's recent illness is that it shows that HE is getting old. The common theme of the clock/bell tower tolling represents the inevitable passing of time, as mentioned in the beginning of the novel, and this reminds Peter of death- of Clarissa's and his own. It's funny how Clarissa's description of the sound of the clock is "heavy" but not foreboding, yet for Peter, it is exactly that: the passing of time is a constant reminder of inevitable death. Perhaps this is the fundamental difference between Clarissa and Peter: she is an optimist and he a pessimist, at least relatively. Also, the fact that the potential death of Clarissa horrifies Peter so much ("No!No!) surely denotes that he has some feelings for her, except the last line makes you suspicious about why he is really scared: because he sees Clarissa as a reflection of himself (and thus for selfish reasons) or is he really in love with her?
Thus, that is my question too: do you think Peter is attached to Clarissa because she is like his "twin" of the opposite sex who he's grown up with, or does he really love her in a romantic way?
In response to Lisa, I feel too that I don't know exactly what the book is saying about love; however, I have the feeling, at least from the stuff we've read so far, that love, for Virginia Woolf, is something that is only momentarily passionate, and then afterwards, it is the memory of that passion that both sustains you and permanently binds you to the person you once loved, even if the passion does not exist anymore. Take Rezia, for instance. It is the memory of her love for Septimus that keeps her at his side. Similarly, I feel it is the memory of the passion that once existed between Peter and Clarissa that holds them together. Their love shows through in pieces of memories from the past; in the present, they are removed from each other- both physically and emotionally. I think Peter and Clarissa are not in love with each other anymore, if they were ever in the first place. Instead, they are bound by habit and memory to each other, which is kind of sad, considering the "moral" of the novel then would be "love" is only ephemeral but the memory stays with you forever.
"Ah, said St. Margaret's, like a hostess who comes into her drawing room on the very stroke of the house and finds her guests there already. I am not late. No, it is precisely half-past eleven, she says. Yet, though she is perfectly right, her voice, being the voice of the hostess, is reluctant to inflict its individuality. Some grief for the past holds it back; some concern for the present. ... like Clarissa herself, [Peter] thought."
This passage was interesting to me because it ties the concept of time to Clarissa. It reminds me of Clarissa's discussion of the bells ringing in the first two pages we analyzed the first day (right before this passage, Woolf even repeats the same line: "The leaden circles dissolved in the air"). Peter describes the clock as a 'hostess,' just as he has referred to Clarissa — and the duties of a hostess are something both Peter and Clarissa (at least, the younger Clarissa) seem to resent. Like Cora said, this passage also reflects Peter's strong interest in time and "being late," and it also further reveals his strong, almost involuntary connection to Clarissa.
A question I have is about this passage in particular — Peter relates the clock to Clarissa, but then says that it is "reluctant to inflict its individuality." All of the descriptions of Clarissa up until this point, however, emphasize her individuality, so what does this mean? Also, if Clarissa reminds Peter of this clock, does she, like time, have a power over him that he can’t control?
To respond to Stacy’s first post (“are we supposed to see Clarissa as this flimsy, weak woman?”): I don’t think so. It’s interesting to be able to look into both Peter and Clarissa’s thoughts, and although Peter does clearly know Clarissa very well, her own thoughts prove that she isn’t weak or “pathetic.” Like you said, he’s probably trying to still sort out and reconcile their past arguments in his mind. We can assume that Clarissa still does have feelings for Peter, and if she were weak or pathetic she wouldn’t have abandoned him by the fountain; in this scene, she seems even more independent and strong-willed than he.
27 comments:
p. 49 -- third paragraph
"As a cloud crosses the sun, silence falls on London; and falls on the mind. Effort ceases. Time flaps on the mast. There we stop; there we stand. [...] Where there is nothing, Peter Walsh said to himself; feeling hollowed out, utterly empty within. Clarissa refused me, he thought. He stood there thinking, Clarissa refused me."
These lines come after three paragraphs in which Peter attempts to convince himself of his own good fortune and of his love (for Daisy). He claims that he is "really for the first time in his life, in love" and calls Clarissa "hard," "cold," and conventional. But when a cloud crosses the sky, when time stops,
he realizes the truth: he is empty because Clarissa refused him. (He's still not over her.)
What is the significance of the woman that Peter follows?
He notices her right after he says that he has escaped, but from what? (from Clarissa's control?). Also, at the end of his adventure, he says "It was over. Well, I've had my fun..." (p 54), which is similar to what Clarissa says after she imagines running away with Peter -- p. 47 "It was now over." Why?
First to respond to Ellery: This section clearly does show that Peter loves Clarissa and hasn't yet come to terms with it, I agree. Especially with the line, "yet Heaven knows he loved her" (60). The scene with Peter following the woman confused me, also; it makes him appear very shallow and also a little creepy. He follows her because "she became the very woman he had always had in mind; young, but stately; merry, but discreet; black, but enchanting. To me, these seemed like very superficial characterstics that he desires in a woman. I think that the scene served to show us several aspects of Peter: he is uncomfortable with his age (his fantasy with a younger woman made him feel young and free), he places a lot of importance on appearance, and he is almost pathetic in that he must invent a story in which he is an adventurer because he does not feels weak in real life.
I chose a quotation that pertains to Peter's opinion of Clarissa: though he claims to love her, he seems to see her as transparent and fake. Clarissa flings herself onto her dog in order to appeal to Peter--it gave me an "aw, that's sad" moment.
"It was as if she said to Peter--it was all aimed at him, he knew--'I know you thought me absurd about that woman just now; but see how extraordinarily sympathetic I am; see how I love me Rob!'...she would do something quite obivious to defend herself, like this fuss with the dog--but it never took him in, he always saw through Clarissa" (60).
My question is, are we supposed to see Clarissa as this flimsy, weak woman? Do we trust Peter's opinion? Does he even believe that she is this pathetic, or is he just trying to make himself feel better?
oops I meant "he feels weak in real life"
pg. 50: "...and the sudden loudness of the final stroke tolled for death that surprised in the midst of life, Clarissa falling where she stood, in her drawing room. No! No! he cried. She is not dead! I am not old, he cried, and marched up Whitehall, as if there rolled down to him, vigorous, unending, his future."
This passage reminded me of the first two pages we read as a class, with the common theme being time the passing of time. I also saw parallels between the chime of Big Ben and the sound of the clock at St.Margaret's. Peter seems like he is in denial of the passage of time and his own aging. In contrast, earlier in the novel, Mrs. Dalloway expresses some regret about how she has lived her life, and describes how she would have changed things if she could have lived her life over again (pg. 10). Mrs Dalloway looks into the past and the things she would change, while Peter continues to look into the future he imagines for himself, even as time passes.
My question is kind of specific and may not be important, but I was wondering why Peter brings up Mrs.Dalloway's daughter Elizabeth (pg. 56). What is her role in the novel? Is she just used to point out certain traits in Mrs.Dalloway, or does she serve some other purpose as her own character?
In response to Ellery's passage: who is the "we" stopping and standing? Is "we" all of humanity? (That was something I was wondering while reading)
Pg. 54: "And it was smashed to atoms - his fun, for it was half made up, as he knew very well; invented, this escapade with the girl; made up, as one makes up the better part of life, he thought - making oneself up; making her up; creating an exquisite amusement, and something more."
This passage fits with our discussion earlier today. Once again, Peter has fictionalized a female counterpart; yet this time, he has no one to impress except for himself and his thirst for excitement. This make-believe is also interesting for comparing Peter to Clarissa; while Peter fabricates a random woman's intentions, Clarissa prizes herself on being able to read people. Though Peter has just returned from India, he is still longing for adventure, excitement, and passion, even if he has to make it up himself.
I was also drawn to the phrase "one makes up the better part of life." Based on everything we - the readers - know and have seen from Peter, does he actually believe this statement, or is he just trying to make excuses for himself here?
Though Peter admits that this moment is indeed fiction, he says that he has "smashed [the moment] to atoms," which are the real, logical building blocks of life. Does this word choice imply that Peter saw more truth than he admits to himself in this moment, or is he simply mourning the logic of reality? Is he trying to build - or rebuild - his own world of sorts?
Whoopsies I forgot to answer a question.
@Katie: Since Elizabeth is the daughter of Richard (Clarissa's husband) and Clarissa, Elizabeth is a result of their marriage and supposedly the product of their love. Peter longs for a romantic relationship with Clarissa, and Elizabeth is a reminder of the relationship he has lost.
I hope that helps!
@Mel--I think Peter is trying to avoid confronting the real world, which is why he indulges in this made up moment. I thought that by trying to avoid facing time, his old age, and remembering his childhood were all his ways of escaping from his problems.
This kind of ties in with my passage: "there were moments when civilisation...seemed dear to him as a personal possession...men of business and capable women all going about their business, punctual, alert, robust, seemed to him wholly admirable" (55).
Later on, "He admired her courage; her social instinct; he admired her power of carrying things through" (62).
It seems very hypocritical of Peter to disapprove of Clarissa being the perfect hostess while he admires her for those qualities as well. I thought that it might be Peter's inability to confront the rigid way of civilization/time that makes him such a failure(?)
What are we supposed to make of Peter's description of Clarissa's coldness? And the "death of her soul" (59)?
Hello, everyone! My quotation is on (my) page 51; in your books it may be anywhere from 50-52:
"He had escape! was utterly free--as happens in the downfall of habit when the mind, like an unguarded flame, bows and bends and seems about to blow from its holding. I haven't felt so young for years! thought Peter, escaping (only of course for an hour or so) from being precisely what he was, and feeling like a child who runs out of doors, and sees, as he runs, his old nurse waving at the wrong window. But she's extraordinarily attractive...as she passed Gordon's statue, seemed, Peter Walsh thought (susceptible as he was) to shed veil after veil, until she became the very woman he had always had in mind..."
I know that mostly everyone has already made some mention of this woman, but I wanted to offer up an alternative (perhaps not mutually exclusive with the others) interpretation of her. On some level, I do think this is very much about Peter's discomfort with his age, and the novel does place an emphasis on this as a depiction of his near-pathetic fantasy life, but I also can't help noticing the parallels between Mrs. Dalloway and Peter that this passage emphasizes. First off, we learn that "freedom" is a very important part of Peter's vision of living life his own way, of escaping "being precisely what he was." This is also something we've already learned causes Mrs. Dalloway a certain amount of distress--does she not want to be someone other than "Mrs. Richard Dalloway," and doesn't she have a fantasy life too, in which she has a life with Peter? In addition, the image of the woman shedding "veil after veil" to become the perfect woman evokes images of Mrs. Dalloway the Nun. If Mrs. Dalloway were to shed her veils, so to speak, she would become her real self, an independent woman without Richard hanging over her? If this is the Clarissa Peter really wants to know--the one who gets what she wishes for--don't we have sympathy for his fantasies?
And my question is...WHO is the solitary traveller? I know Mr. Golding mentioned him in class, but I'm very curious: is he simply (well, not "simply") another "fantasy" version of Peter, or is he someone else? Are all of the women he meets supposed to be versions of Mrs. Dalloway (the elderly woman is ill)? Or are they others--for instance, a "mother whose sons have been killed in the battles of the world" seems to be Lady Bexborough, Mrs. Dalloway's (not Peter's) ideal woman?
I think I'm going to come back and respond to a post later; right now, everyone's ideas are just so nice to read as they are, and I think I might need a little time o think before I even know what to write!
P.S. I'm really sorry for this long post. And this P.S. just made it longer. Sorry. Again.
pp. 51 (top): "Boys in uniform, carrying guns, marched with their eyes ahead of them, marched, their arms stiff, and on their faces an expression like the letters of a legend written round the base of a statue praising duty, gratitude, fidelity, love of England."
+ pp. 55 (middle of first paragraph): "...there were moments when civilisation, even of this sort, seemed dear to him as a personal possession, moments of pride in England; in butlers; chow dogs; girls in their security."
These quotations struck me because they continue on a theme of English patriotism and nationalism that have been subtly appearing throughout the novel; in almost every paragraph there is some small reminder that the action is set in England, whether in Westminster, Bourton, up Whitehall, etc. There seems to be a strong connection between the main characters and English pride, which was fleshed out to its fullest in the passages about the mysterious car; there, a meaningless object was transformed into a national icon. People want desperately to believe that meaning exists in the passing car, attaching to it symbols of tradition and beloved national icons (the figureheads of England)--which in themselves are symbols, abstract concepts to which people attach deeper meaning.
Question: is this undercurrent of English nationalism then just an indicator of how people scrabble for some kind of meaning in their lives? What are we meant to make of India, and Peter Walsh's background in it?
(If I may, Tori, I'm going to copy you and come back to respond later when I've mulled things over a bit)
Bottom of p. 47 (in my edition)—“he, Peter Walsh; who was now really for the first time in his life, in love. Clarissa had grown hard, he thought; and a trifle sentimental into the bargain, he suspected, looking at the great motor-cars capable of doing—how many miles on how many gallons? For he had a turn for mechanics; had invented a plough in his district, had ordered wheel-barrows from England, but the coolies wouldn’t use them, all of which Clarissa knew nothing whatever about.”
I chose this passage because it shows just now hard Peter is trying to distance himself from Clarissa, and how badly he’s failing. He tries very hard to convince himself that he’s now in love with another, but his insistence of “now really for the first time” is a little too much to make it believable. All his assertions about Clarissa, as well, are described as products of his own mind: “he thought” and “he suspected”. He tries to distance himself from Clarissa by asserting that she knows nothing about mechanics while he knows very much, but the fact that he even started talking about her again just goes to show that she is not far from his thoughts. My question is whether Clarissa is aware of his mixed feelings for her, or whether she believes the lie that he has presented to her?
To respond to Katie’s question: I think that Elizabeth, as far as we’ve seen her and as far as Peter thinks of her, is simply as a product of Mr. and Mrs. Dalloway’s marriage. She is proof that they are married, were possibly once close, and that Clarissa, despite all her feelings to the contrary, is not a virgin. The fact that Elizabeth is so different from Mrs. Dalloway shows how separated Mrs. Dalloway is from Westminster—from her daughter’s world. Peter sees how Mrs. Dalloway tries to claim Elizabeth as her own (“here’s my Elizabeth”) when really she has no claim to her.
My quotation is on my page 88. Sorry, I have no idea what page it is on in the Harcourt edition, but it's around the middle of the reading, and the paragraph starts with "It was at Bourton that summer...":
Clarissa, Peter, Sally, and other guests are sitting around a table and talking about a housemaid who had a baby before she was married.
"He had married his housemaid, and she had been brought to Bourton to call-- and awful visit it had been. She was absurdly over-dressed, "like a cockatoo," Clarissa had said, imitating her, and she never stopped talking. On and on she went, on and on. Clarissa imitated her. Then somebody said-- Sally Seton it was-- did it make any real difference to one's feelings to know that before they'd married she had a baby?...He could see Clarissa now, turning bright pink...and saying, "Oh! I shall never be able to speak to her again!"
Peter then comments on this, saying that Clarissa is "timid; hard; something arrogant...The death of the soul."
It seems that Clarissa, like we talked about in class, really cares about how she presents herself in front of others. She degrades the housemaid, imitating her, and talking "on and on" about her. At the end, she goes too far and ultimately embarrasses herself in front of the guests.
In this case, I sympathize with Peter. Clarissa cares too much about herself and not enough about other people that a part of her, that Peter once knew, was gone. I wouldn't go as far as to say that her soul dies, as Peter does, but Clarissa definitely loses a part of herself.
Question:
This may be trivial, but why does Peter keep mentioning that he is annoyed with Clarissa when she says "Here is my Elizabeth!" instead of "Here's Elizabeth"? He mentions it twice.
Will come back to respond...
Of course you may, Alice!
I'm going to respond to a few questions, if no one minds.
First, off, Helen:
I thought Peter's references to her coldness and the "death of her soul" really add to the descriptions of coldness we saw from her own perspective, showing readers that this is in fact a quality Mrs. Dalloway has, and it's a negative one at that--even Mrs. Dalloway admits it. As for what we are supposed to make of her coldness...Well, I'm not entirely sure. Although I have absolutely no idea what is going to happen in the end, I do have a gut feeling that Peter is going to, or at least should, be the one to revive her. The "death of her soul" came at Bourton, in the country: where she had her relationship with Sally, where she commenced courtship with Richard...but where a relationship with Peter was never realized. Perhaps the city, though unnatural and almost mechanic in its descriptions, will bring her back her soul (as it brought her a love of life) and Peter.
Alice:
Although I had begun to note in the back of my mind how often these "English" references occur, I hadn't even thought about them in terms of English nationalism. Thanks for pointing this out! I don't know if I could answer the overarching meaning of this nationalism for people in general, but I did want to try to talk about English nationalism in comparison to Peter's trip to India. I think each place serves a distinct purpose here; just as the contrast between Bourton (country) and Westminster (city) is important (in particular, I think, for demonstrating differences between youthful Clarissa and aging Mrs. Dalloway), the distinction between England and India must be important for describing Clarissa and Peter. I feel as though Peter left for India in order to find himself and perhaps even escape Mrs. Dalloway; he tried to do what stereotypical do-gooders do: better the world and "civilize" the "uncivilized" (I say this because he mentioned the racial slur "coolie" in reference to the Indians--although, was it a racial slur at the time? I'm not sure). Unfortunately for him, however, he cannot delude himself into believing he is happy, despite his new marriage. I think we are supposed to see this reality in Woolf's choice of India for his journey, as a good chunk of its history (especially recent history) has involved a constant British influence. Because Great Britain seems to represent Mrs. Dalloway on some level, this also suggests that the real Mrs. Dalloway has been a constant influence in Peter's life, even while he was in India. Now that he is back, we are seeing nationalist references from Peter, as well. Does this maybe suggest that they want to be "one England" now?
This of course hardly touches on either of your questions (boy, there really is a lot to discuss with Mrs. Dalloway, isn't there?), but I would love to continue discussing these and other questions!
By the way, wow. I just noticed all of my typos in my previous post, and there are probably a ton in here, too.
@joy: The second time Peter mentions it, he also says "Probably she doesn't get on with Clarissa" (55). Elizabeth being the offspring of Clarissa and Richard, it's almost as if he hopes Elizabeth and Clarissa don't get along. And so, he enjoys seeing Clarissa struggle to pretend she has a good relationship with her daughter, hence the repetition.
pg 52:
"There was a dignity about her. She was not worldly, like Clarissa; not rich, like Clarissa. Was she, he wondered as she moved, respectable?"
In this passage Peter is describing the woman that he follows. Although he keeps on telling himself that he is over Clarissa, he can't help but compare other women to her, let alone a random woman he doesn't actually know. No matter how many times he tries to convince himself he no longer loves Clarissa, it is pretty clear that he still does.
Question:Why is Peter so sure Richard is the one Clarissa is to marry the moment he sees him?
pg51: "Boys in uniform, carrying guns, marched with their eyes ahead of them, marched, their arms stiff, and on their faces an expression like the letters of a legend written round the base of a statue praising duty, gratitude, fidelity, love of England...Now they wore on them unmixed with sensual pleasure of daily preoccupations the solemnity of the wreath which they had fetched from Finsbury Pavement to the empty tomb...On they marched...in their steady way, as if one will worked the legs and arms uniformly, and life, with its varieties, its irreticences, had been laid under a pavement of monuments and wreaths and drugged into a stiff yet staring corpse by discipline."
I think this passage is interesting because of the way it shows the difference between what something stands for and what something actually is. The boys supposedly are meant to be some sort of legend, someone who is devoted to England out of emotion - "duty, gratitude, fidelity, love," yet Peter is quick to point out that this isn't the case. They have expressionless faces as they bring a wreath to the empty tomb (I'm assuming this is in relation to the custom of laying wreaths on the tombs of soldiers, and I would guess that it's empty because it is a monument/memorial to a soldier, however I could be reading that incorrectly), and it is simply treated as having taken a vow, which I see as saying that they simply need to serve their country, no more. After this, Peter notes their walk, and how ridiculously coordinated it is to the extent that life was "drugged into...a corpse." That life is paved over by wreaths and monuments again plays into the lack of emotion the soldiers have over their duties. In the end, the people who are supposed to be central to England's nationalism are, in reality, just figureheads to the people.
Question: This may be too broad, but what purpose do the parenthetical comments serve? Especially when referring to a previous thought, like when Peter hears the clock striking and a mention is made to the leaden circles dissolving in parentheses. Are they like usual parentheses, serving merely as side notes, or do they have a larger purpose?
(this is long enough, so I'll respond in a separate post)
At Katie: I remember how we discussed in class how annoyed Mrs. Dalloway was over the fact that she had followed the path in life she had planned out and yet wasn't happy, while Peter had done something different and seemed (supposedly) to be fairly pleased. In looking at Elizabeth in reference to this, one could say that Elizabeth is proof of how Mrs. Dalloway's life plan never went the way she wanted; Elizabeth never became a 'shoe and glove' kind of girl, and instead loves an old history teacher more than her mother. When Peter is around, Mrs. Dalloway tries to reclaim her daughter ("My Elizabeth") almost in an effort to prove that her life has turned out for the better, because she needs to one-up Peter, when really, Elizabeth is hardly hers.
Somewhat a vague-ish connection to Tori's original post... kind of.
I was really interested in Peter's obsession with time/age/the past. In a span of a few pages, he discusses different aspects:
before the adventure: "He had not felt to young for years" (52).
during his brief infatuation with the woman on the street" "she's young, quite young" (53).
then, when he sits down at the park: "odd, he thought, how the thought of childhood keeps coming back to me--the result of seeing Clarissa, perhaps; for women live much more in the past than we do, he thought" (55).
YET, he then reminisces about Bourton: "'Lord, Lord!' he said to himself outloud ... 'The death of the soul.' The words attached themselves to some scene, to some room, to some past he had been dreaming of" (58).
I'm being lame cause these are pretty broad, but I think the first two add a nice intro. Anyway, I want to focus most specifically on the last two. I chose these passages because they show (like many of my brilliant classmates have demonstrated before me) Peter's conflicting thoughts. Though he says that "living in the past" is a womanly thing to do, he proves that he is doing that exact thing merely three pages later. He always reminisces about moments at Bourton... They cloud his thoughts and perhaps show by his own reasoning that he is "womanly.” He places the blame, of course, elsewhere: “the result of seeing Clarissa.”
What else can we say about Peter’s obsession with time? Time obviously has a major role in the entire novel—Big Ben, the time of day, etc. etc.
OH AND!!! THE BOY SOLDIERS
@Erika and Katie : I agree. Though this isn’t exactly the word I’m looking for, Peter and Clarissa’s relationship is somewhat “competitive.” Both try to prove that they are better off without the other. For Peter, he must prove that the rejection did not actually break him—yet we know, quite clearly, that it has. For Clarissa, she must prove that she has made the right decision after all these years. We readers know that neither is satisfied with how things turned out. I think it goes back to their relationship as young adults. Peter is extremely critical—like that time when they are discussing the pregnant neighbor. Clarissa, on the other hand, is overly prude. Both are too stubborn, even as their older selves, to admit wrong.
pp. 55 second paragraph:
"-odd, he thought, how the thought of childhood keeps coming back to me-the result of seeing Clarissa, perhaps; for women live much more in the past than we do, he thought."
I found this passage interesting because both Clarissa and Peter find themselves thinking about the past. After Peter's meeting with Clarissa, we enter Peter's mind where he is clearly being drawn back to his childhood memories. Everything he sees in the city-- the park, Gordon's statue-- all remind him of when he was a boy.
Clarissa also thinks of the past, as we saw in the previous reading. She was thinking about her girlhood when Peter came to visit. This shows that both of them are still not over the past (that they shared), and this also shows that both Peter and Clarissa are somewhat afraid of getting old.
One last thing-- Peter says that reminiscing is more of a woman thing to do, but I found this strange because Peter is the one who just cried at Clarissa's house while thinking of the past...
My Question: Why does Peter have a sudden revelation that "She will marry that man"(61) talking about Richard Dalloway? After seeing Richard and Clarissa talking for the first time, why does Peter immediately think they will get married? And after he so surely thinks this, why doesn't he do anything more about it to win Clarissa back instead of just crying??
So sorry Cora! totally didn't mean to copy your quotation! I swear I saw it after I posted mine!!
To (kind of) respond to Ellery... I think that Peter has escaped from the world itself. He mentions that no one besides Clarissa knows that he is back from India, and he really has no obligations. He is, basically, free in London, and I think he realizes that and wants to enjoy it. Maybe he almost wants to try a new identity or escape from the old thoughts that are bothering him, which might be why he follows around that woman. He seems to be trying to "have fun" when he follows that girl home--like he thinks something exciting is going to happen, but nothing does.
This also ties in with the idea that Peter AND Clarissa are somewhat afraid of getting old. Both say they "have had [their] fun" and, at times, both get lost in their pasts.
(Just to clarify, this is Julia Sklar, not Fernandez...)
A few people have already mentioned this quotation, but I'm going to sort of take it in a different direction.
"'The death of the soul.' The words attached themselves to some scene, to some room, to some past he had been dreaming of. It became clearer; the scene, the room, the past he had been dreaming of" (58).
-in conjunction with-
"'THe death of the soul.' He said that instinctively, ticketing the moment as he used to do—the death of her soul" (59).
I chose these two quotations to pinpoint what is a rapidly developing theme: Peter's deflection of himself onto Clarissa. Between these two passages it becomes very clear that Peter is not over the past, as he he attaches this "death of the soul" to "the past he had been dreaming of," which we later find out is his past with Clarissa. Just as you're about to accept that the "death of the soul" Peter is talking about is referring to himself, he turns the tables and announces that it was in fact Clarissa whose soul died that day at Bourton. This "moment" of "the death of her soul" is pinned to the day that she and Dalloway met; the day that Peter postulated they would married, and subsequently broke it off with Clarissa. I believe that we can read this as having subtext, which is that the day he says Clarissa's soul died, is more probably the day HIS soul died... the day he lost Clarissa, who was his first love (49). This brings the meaning of these two quotations back to himself once again, even though he claims he is talking about Clarissa. This seems to be a very common attitude that Peter takes, blaming Clarissa, and making her out to be the wounded or imperfect one, when it seems that he is actually talking about himself.
My question is rather specific, but I was wondering if, in the passage "[Sally] had either been engaged to somebody or quarrelled with her family and old Parry disliked them both [Sally and Peter] equally, which was a great bond" (60), is it significant that Peter has just connected himself with Sally here, pairing the two people whom Clarissa has loved? Might this idea return later? And if so, what do you think it means, since the two kinds of love she feels (the one for Sally and the one for Peter) are so different?
My response is to Joy:
I think Peter is picking up on Clarissa's language here, because it's extremely possessive. She's saying this is MY daughter, and you had no part of it, this isn't OUR daughter, and this isn't just any Elizabeth. This clearly bothers him because he wishes he'd been married to Clarissa, and Elizabeth is a reminder to him that he's not.
What made Septimus go crazy? He seems to be especially crazy when contemplating things outside of the current time (i.e. when he is having a vision of dogs becoming men, visions of Evans, etc...), however his thoughts of things that are happening in the moment and his present contemplations on some things that will or have already happened seem to be relatively quiet rational (i.e. his reaction to seeing Rezia's ring-less finger, and when he states that there must be "a scientific explanation). His thoughts that come across as crazy to the reader seem to be somehow inspired by something in a different time. As a character he sees much beauty in life, therefore superficially it seems contradictory that he is suicidal. Are his suicidal thoughts, then, a result of time (the collision of time, the overwhelming nature of time, the confusion that it imposes on him...?) Relating all of this back to Mrs. Dalloway, how are the affects of time on both of them similar/different?
In response to Julia:
I was also interested in the relationship between Peter and Sally, because they are two people from Clarissa's past and the two people she loved at Bourton. On page 63, it says, "Sally sweeping him off for talks in the garden;Clarissa in bed with headaches." This line occurs after Clarissa begins falling love with Dalloway, and I thought the juxtaposition of the two people Clarissa loved together, and Clarissa alone in bed, was really interesting. Also, Julia's question and the bond between Peter and Sally over Clarissa was really relevant in tonight's reading (pg. 75)
ok, so, disclaimer: this question is really incoherent. thinking abuot the fact that Clarissa was in love with a feminist... Is there any sort of distinct difference between the connotations of men v. women? It is kind of funny how Clarissa says she used to spend her time reading Plato, who had a completely male-centric view of the world, and viewed the love between a young and old man to be the best kind of love and any other kinds of love to be nourishing the base parts of the soul, while Clarissa seems to put substantial value into the love between two young women.
What made her love with Sally was the sense of being "in it together" and the protectiveness of the relationship (in addition to the love of life shared by the two girls). Considering this, why does she then feel the need for complete independence when it comes time for her to make her choice of husband? Is this just because she knows she will never be happy with a man? Anyways....ridiculously broad question: what is the book's view (so far) of love? (What is it? Where does it exist? are there different kinds? can it be detrimental?...)
:/ Sorry for all of the questions, i will keep my quotation short. Like roses, dogs seem to be a motif They are first brought up when Clarissa says her daughter cares for them, then when Richard fixes up the dog's paw that got caught in a trap and RIchard is described as standing on his hind legs (or something along those lines), then in Septimus' vision of dogs becoming men, and finally when Septimus and his war buddy Evans. Perhaps the enduring dog-like or animalistic qualities result in, are brought out by, and are strengthened by the war?
quotation:
p.75 paragraph 2 "...Richard Dalloway got on his hind legs and said that no decent man ought to read Shakespeare's sonnets because it was like listening at keyholes..." At first I thought this was comical but then i realized how sad it truly is. Clarissa has already generously quoted Shakespeare; some of the quotations bring her hope and some she can personally relate to. This quotation shows how essentially different from each other mr. and mrs. dalloway are. This also made me think of the affect of war; Septimus used to read Shakespeare and want to be a poet, he rejected this after returning hardened and jaded from the war. Shakespeare may also serve as a symbol of England (and art/beauty/joy in general), if this is true, the rejection of him, which may be attributed to WWI, is significant.
In response to the quotation Mel chose
Pg. 54: "And it was smashed to atoms - his fun, for it was half made up, as he knew very well; invented, this escapade with the girl; made up, as one makes up the better part of life, he thought - making oneself up; making her up; creating an exquisite amusement, and something more."
I found it interesting that he concedes that one makes up most of life (implying that people aren't perfectly true to themselves, that everyone is, to some degree, superficial) when he criticizes for Clarissa for being superficial.
Is this a connection we are supposed to see? Is superficiality universal to everyone, or just to Peter and Clarissa?
"Then, as the sound of St. Margaret's languished, he thought, She has been ill, and the sound expressed langour and suffering. It was her heart, he remembered; and the sudden loudness of the final stroke tolled for death that surprised in the midst of life, Clarissa falling where she stood, in her drawing room. No! No! he cried. She is not dead! I am not old, he cried, and marched up Whitehall, as if there rolled down to him, vigorous, unending, his future." pg 50
The first thing that struck me about this passage is that Peter's biggest concern regarding Clarissa's recent illness is that it shows that HE is getting old. The common theme of the clock/bell tower tolling represents the inevitable passing of time, as mentioned in the beginning of the novel, and this reminds Peter of death- of Clarissa's and his own. It's funny how Clarissa's description of the sound of the clock is "heavy" but not foreboding, yet for Peter, it is exactly that: the passing of time is a constant reminder of inevitable death. Perhaps this is the fundamental difference between Clarissa and Peter: she is an optimist and he a pessimist, at least relatively. Also, the fact that the potential death of Clarissa horrifies Peter so much ("No!No!) surely denotes that he has some feelings for her, except the last line makes you suspicious about why he is really scared: because he sees Clarissa as a reflection of himself (and thus for selfish reasons) or is he really in love with her?
Thus, that is my question too: do you think Peter is attached to Clarissa because she is like his "twin" of the opposite sex who he's grown up with, or does he really love her in a romantic way?
In response to Lisa, I feel too that I don't know exactly what the book is saying about love; however, I have the feeling, at least from the stuff we've read so far, that love, for Virginia Woolf, is something that is only momentarily passionate, and then afterwards, it is the memory of that passion that both sustains you and permanently binds you to the person you once loved, even if the passion does not exist anymore. Take Rezia, for instance. It is the memory of her love for Septimus that keeps her at his side. Similarly, I feel it is the memory of the passion that once existed between Peter and Clarissa that holds them together. Their love shows through in pieces of memories from the past; in the present, they are removed from each other- both physically and emotionally. I think Peter and Clarissa are not in love with each other anymore, if they were ever in the first place. Instead, they are bound by habit and memory to each other, which is kind of sad, considering the "moral" of the novel then would be "love" is only ephemeral but the memory stays with you forever.
pg 49, Peter talking about the bell:
"Ah, said St. Margaret's, like a hostess who comes into her drawing room on the very stroke of the house and finds her guests there already. I am not late. No, it is precisely half-past eleven, she says. Yet, though she is perfectly right, her voice, being the voice of the hostess, is reluctant to inflict its individuality. Some grief for the past holds it back; some concern for the present. ... like Clarissa herself, [Peter] thought."
This passage was interesting to me because it ties the concept of time to Clarissa. It reminds me of Clarissa's discussion of the bells ringing in the first two pages we analyzed the first day (right before this passage, Woolf even repeats the same line: "The leaden circles dissolved in the air").
Peter describes the clock as a 'hostess,' just as he has referred to Clarissa — and the duties of a hostess are something both Peter and Clarissa (at least, the younger Clarissa) seem to resent. Like Cora said, this passage also reflects Peter's strong interest in time and "being late," and it also further reveals his strong, almost involuntary connection to Clarissa.
A question I have is about this passage in particular — Peter relates the clock to Clarissa, but then says that it is "reluctant to inflict its individuality." All of the descriptions of Clarissa up until this point, however, emphasize her individuality, so what does this mean? Also, if Clarissa reminds Peter of this clock, does she, like time, have a power over him that he can’t control?
To respond to Stacy’s first post (“are we supposed to see Clarissa as this flimsy, weak woman?”):
I don’t think so. It’s interesting to be able to look into both Peter and Clarissa’s thoughts, and although Peter does clearly know Clarissa very well, her own thoughts prove that she isn’t weak or “pathetic.” Like you said, he’s probably trying to still sort out and reconcile their past arguments in his mind. We can assume that Clarissa still does have feelings for Peter, and if she were weak or pathetic she wouldn’t have abandoned him by the fountain; in this scene, she seems even more independent and strong-willed than he.
Post a Comment